I was somewhat confused by the answer you gave to the person who asked you the question about
fallen angels. You go on to state that God literally "elected" who was going to be saved and who was not, including the angels. What kind of God would he be if he actually chose for us? With that being said, were does freewill come in? Or what would be
the profit for us to have been given freewill.
No one has true "freewill" except God Himself, for only God can do what He pleases. The "freewill" of men and angels is always subject to God's sovereignty and His divine freewill. God let's each man and woman chose whether they will be obedient to Him or not. Every man and woman from the beginning of creation chose to reject God by their sins, thus all of them were condemned to eternal judgment.
God knew that all mankind would use their "limited" freewill to reject Him and His Savior and would have been justified to let each one be born, live, die and thrown into the eternal torments of Hell and the Lake of Fire. However, God the Father had decided to give a "Love Gift" to the God the Son--Jesus Christ and that gift was a race of people (His Bride) who would love and adore Jesus for all of eternity, and mankind's refusal to be the Bride of Christ was not acceptable to God the Father who does what He wants. So God the Father sovereignly chose "some" of sinful mankind to be saved. He was under no obligation to choose (elect) everyone for salvation.
Note that God did not "elect" any one to go to Hell, He only elected those who He would give the "free gift" of salvation to. The rest were simply left with their freewill choice of their rejection of God and His Savior and thus would have no excuse for being punished eternally, for they got what they wanted.
Now, for the "elect," who were given the free gift of faith, they profit greatly knowing that they have escaped eternal punishment that they rightly deserved because of the mercy and grace of God, and they will be eternally grateful.
Yet you say that "He chose some to be saved (despite their freewill choice not to be)--that is, God did not ask for their permission." "HE CHOSE" are the key words here. To say that God "Chose" or "Elected" some over others goes completely against scripture and against God's divine nature. This would make God a God of favoritism and discrimination.
This is not true. God did not chose a person to be "elect" because they were any better or smarter or any different than any one else. He simply chose some because He wanted to. We are not all created equal. Some of us are more intelligent than others; more attractive than others; more wealthy than others; more healthy than others...etc. God did not sin in making each one of us different and thus not all equal, because He is the potter and can make out of the clay anything He wants:
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" [Romans 9:21]
Doesn't election make God an unfair God, and an unjust God?
What right does sinful mankind have to ever call God unfair or unjust? Do you want "fairness"? Do you want "Justice"? Well, fairness and justice would demand that all sinners go to Hell forever because they all sinned against a holy God. But God chose to give mercy (grace) to some sinners, not all. Mercy and Grace are unmerited favor, and if you insist that God gives it to everyone then it is no longer Mercy and Grace but an obligation.
By not allowing us to voluntarily accept or reject God, then we have no
say in the matter?
Not true. God gave everyone the right to accept or reject Him. But we all rejected Him. You had your say and you said, "No!" Election says that after we all said, "No!" and were condemned, that God simply chose to save some despite their freewill choice against Him. Doesn't God have the right to make that choice? "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [Romans 9:15]
Why would God create mankind only to send some to Hell, into eternal torment? Why would God create a being only to punish and torment them? It doesn't make any sense.
Of course it makes no sense because it is not true....God did not "elect" anyone to hell, rather men and women condemned themselves to hell: "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved." [2 Thessalonians 2:10] Note, that they refused to love the truth and thus were condemned....they did it all themselves.
It would be the same as me planning on bringing two children into this world only to keep one locked up in a basement forever and let the other be free and enjoy freedom and not give each one of them an equal opportunity. What loving father would do this to his children unless he
was a cruel father?
Don't call God cruel, your illustration is invalid. God gave all His creatures (mankind) equal opportunity to obey Him, but "THEY" all "chose" to reject Him.
The Bible says: John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
You see, God has not elected us. God has given us the freewill to elect for ourselves. The above passage clearly teaches this. "....whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." How, then, can we have the opportunity to choose to believe if someone has already chosen for us?
We all did have the opportunity to choose, and we all rejected God--election occurred after man chose! "All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." [Psalm 14:3]
God is full of love, mercy, and forgiveness. It is impossible to comprehend and understand God's level of love and goodness. Gods love and mercy is infinite. Until we are with him, we will not be able to understand and feel his love in its fullness and completeness.
Yes, He is merciful and loving and that is why there was an "election" of some sinners to salvation.
There is one very important detail that is being ignored. GOD IS ALL KNOWING. God knew, way before our creation, who was going to accept him and who was going to reject him.
That supernatural power of his, of being all knowing, enabled him to know who his children would be. We can rest assure that God is just, fair, equal, nondiscriminatory, objective, unbiased, uncolored, unprejudiced, trustworthy, dependable, faithful, adoring, benevolent, cordial, kind, tender, warmhearted; attentive, caring, considerate, amorous. I can go on and on. God is all that is GOOD. God does not send anyone to hell. We send ourselves for "willfully choosing" to disobey and rebel against our Creator. To say that God, himself, elected some to eternal life and some to eternal punishment is to completely tear apart God's divine nature, character, and gospels which he has left for us to live and abide by.
True, because what you just said is not reality, for the Bible never says that God chose anyone for eternal punishment--you said that--God never said that. You are using human wisdom which is foolishness in God's sight. You are trying to say that man has the ability to make the decision, on his own, to save himself, but that is a lie. The Bible says this about man's ability to understand and make spiritual decisions:
"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." [1 Corinthians 2:14]
"As for you, you were dead [prior to salvation] in your transgressions and sins." [Ephesians 2:1]
So, it is only when God gives the "free" gift of faith that the elect have the ability to change their "freewill" decision to choose Christ. And this gift is only given to those whom God chooses to give it to: "It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." [Ephesians 2:8-9]
Added to Bible Bulletin Board's "Tony Capoccia's Questions and Answers" by:
Bible Bulletin Board
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